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cr47t

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  3. Posted

    crossposted from YCM https://www.cardmaker.net/forums/topic/405074-new-project-advice-request-interest-check/?tab=comments#comment-7185725

    so i have an idea for a story, that i'm working on - perhaps a book for all ages, so i don't have to extend the first draft length beyond my stamina's limits. my other projects, i aimed for full length novel length, but i think if i can make my book more accessible to younger ages instead of just the grown ups, i will not have to have as much copy (although i'm aware that it also means i will need to put more care into choice of words.)

    the basic idea is: following the story of a child's growth, but as she grows up, the town grows up and the magic (for lack of a better word, more on this later) starts to go away: we follow the grown-up version's narration as she recounts the events, hoping to come to peace with that process. (the idea of a narrator recalling events that ended without a complete happy ending, is partially borrowed from my recent re-reading of "The Little Prince".)

    the town begins as something resembling a village, secluded from the 'modern' world and at peace with itself; the gradual transformation of the village from a community into a destination, starting with a railroad arriving at the town, eventually causes the community to lose itself in the new attention. (the town is based on Hallstatt, a village in Austria, and the process is partially drawn from its tourism problem.) the 'magic' system in my story, while it does cause abilities, is more built around enlightenment than power, but it gets lost in the shuffle of the town's transformation, as well as the kid's changing life around him as he grows up.

    these changes help reflect the more fundamental change from a benevolent community to an impersonal society, which as a thematic motif is meant for a more thoughtful, perhaps grown-up reader, while the sense of wonder in the early scenes and the narrator's eventual coming to terms  in the later one, are meant to help extend the appeal to all ages. (again, based on reception of "The Little Prince" from kids and adults alike.)

    does this suggest any other works you read? what did you appreciate of dislike about it? in addition, if you had anything to contribute or suggest or want me to elaborate on, let me know.

    NOTE: this thread is not meant to be a continuation of my conflict thread.

  13. Posted

    3 hours ago, (?) said:

    The ten in kishotenketsu is literally conflict.

    Not to mention that motivation in and of itself is conflict between inaction and action. If a character has no motivation, then there is no action. With no action, no story. Sometimes this motivation is in subtext, sometimes it isn't even touched upon within the work and is up to the audience to decide, but even then, it is a required component.

    Also here's a potentially hot take: 4koma isn't always storytelling. I wouldn't tell a joke and say it's a story. Now, some jokes are stories, but not all. To say that a 4 panel comic doesn't fit the conventions of storytelling is a whataboutism at best.

    Another thought on it, if one disagrees with my previous two paragraphs, is that even if you can tell a story and say it has no conflict, is that an interesting story? I suppose that entertainment can be gained through spectacle, but... Is that a story? Is a painting a story? What's the point? Why are you telling it?

    i'll respond to these and then imma just make a new thread for the other things i wanted to talk about involving this, and i'll try to not post here after this because people seemed to be a bit riled up (or at least that was my interpretation - it's hard to tell on the internet) by the title question, and i really don't want this to turn into any more of a fight.

    PT 1: clarifying the original intent of my thread

    first of all, i want to clarify something i should have made clear before - i wasn't trying to say that conflict is unneccesary or bad, just that i think a story could prioritize something above conflict and still be of quality, but by that i am not calling conflict dismissable; i guess a better way of wording the question would be "is conflict as the central focus always neccesary?"

    my original point was that conflict between characters doesn't have to always be *the only* thing that matters, even if it conflict in general turns out to always be *one of* the things that matters most. as a writer who likes to try new things in writing i'm not the kind of person to hold onto any writing guideline as absolute. but i understand that some rules matter a lot more to some people than others, and that's what i think is happening here.

    part 2: responding to the quote

    i'm not going to respond to "the ten... is literally conflict" because i don't want to keep going back and forth causing a scene, and i talked about both of that in the first part of the post.

    "motivation [as] conflict between action and inaction...": yes, motivation is something i wouldn't ditch at all. but i think of it more as a cause of action. conflict between action and inaction is more of a internal conflict scenario rather than what motivation is by necessity.

    not going to comment on 4koma because i never meant for that to get so much focus.

    can a story be interesting w/o conflict? i'm not going to answer that question with a yes or no b/c i want people to make up their own minds even if that leads to diff. answers than mine. now that i think of it, totoro, the example i mentioned above, could probably fit into less than 5 pages: i can't quite put into words what about it makes it special to me, it's kind of a personal thing, but i expect it could be more like the experience part than the story part.

    a painting can tell a story but it doesn't have to and there are many that can't. a movie doesn't have to have a story, nor a book does, nor a game, but a story itself has to have a story, obviously. i still don't want to go in circles around what that means since that's a very person-to-person answer. i know that looks like a non-answer and a copout, but i'm just tired and want to move on to other things, if that's ok.

  15. Posted

    BUMP and attempt to get the conversation to a more constructive place?

    Recently read a post on reddit in this thread 

    Quote

    1st: There is conflict.

    The conflict is rarely hero fights enemy, story resolves. The story, in this case, is a spiral. Instead of one great conflict you have multiple smaller conflicts. A good way to study conflict placement is to watch an anime. Count each conflict you see. Chances are there will be more than one per episode and no major conflict. If there is a major conflict(Like in most Naruto episodes) it tends to be during the 'ten' stage.

    2nd: As stated before it's a spiral.
    Don't think linearly. It won't work. Think in a spiral. You're not crossing the street you're navigating a hedge maze. By the end of the story your character should be fulfilled. The end goal is an enlightened character not a trampled villain.

    3rd: Typically you don't stop at the basic,,, structure.

    A very good example of this is Japanese horror. This diagram from Tofugu [link did not carry over] shows just how complex things can actually get. This is because all you need is the four acts. Other than that, the story is up to you.

    Now that I've addressed what I know of Kishotenketsu that I didn't actually see mentioned...I'll go ahead and say that I do not agree with the people saying it won't transfer to the west.

    As mentioned above a lot of anime use this structure in scripting. Anime and Manga are already incredibly popular. Parasite [the movie], another good example, has a 98% on rotten tomatoes. The west has already been exposed to consuming media with this structure. The actual issue would be figuring it out.

    - u/KeijiTheCisnt

    Hopefully this can settle this. I also think that assuming there is a conflict in kishotenketsu (i still think it can t6echnically be done w/o it even though it's supremely difficult to the point that are there any successful examples? anyway if there is a conflict in a kishotenketsu structure) then either the conflict itself or at least the resolution would be based on internal discovery rather than external action": the endpoint is more to fall in line with an enlightened character or world, rather than a trampled villain.

    thoughts? (i hope this isnt as wrongheaded as the original post link has been shown to be)

     

  16. Posted · Edited by cr47t
    deleted unrelated lists from quote

    On 5/24/2021 at 2:08 PM, Azure said:
      Hide contents

    FHkNw6R.png

    Have only watched a couple of Ghibli films, with the only ones I've watched more than once being Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away. I also can't remember much about Kiki's Delivery Service, Ponyo, and Totoro.

    S Tier: Princess Mononoke

    A Tier: Spirited Away

    B Tier: Kiki’s Delivery Service, Ponyo, My Neighbour Totoro.

     

    Two more tier lists, plus I went back to change up the Kamen Rider one, as looking back at it I wasn't really happy with how I sorted them. There are a few more which may be changed, such as the FEH Resplendent one due to updates for it on Wednesday.

    im surprised to see mononoke at 1 and ponyo on the same level as totoro (havent seen kiki's in a long time). i didn't really understand the appeal of mononoke when i watched it, so what is it other people see in it that i might not, that would put it above spirited away (my preferred of the two)? and i like ponyo and all but what puts on the same level as totoro (my personal favorite)?

  17. Posted · Edited by cr47t

    i cant cover everything so heres just a few things

    On 5/23/2021 at 8:42 PM, Themperor said:

    [long]

    I'll think about this, cause there's a lot to take in, but I do think you make some reasonable points (for example, your description of Totoro was on-point and illustrated how me and the article missed the point - more on that later).

     

    On 5/23/2021 at 9:58 PM, radio414 said:

    ...

    You hit most of the other points I wanted to make, so I'll just add that the notion that Jacques Derrida said all reality is a series of narratives is a gross mistranslation of his assertion "there is no out-of-context", an assertion meant to break down the structuralist theories of language at the time he said it, and the propogation of said mistranslation, while probably fascinating to his field, was led by his rivals to demonize him. For more about Derrida's actual philosophy, here's a lengthy but languid lecture on that.

    That being said, I do believe in stories without conflict (violent or otherwise). Russian Ark (written and directed by Alexander Sokurov) does have plot -- it is a story -- but in structure it's more a very technically proficient museum tour -- conflict is absent. Similarly (at least as far as "technically proficient" extends), the IBM short film "A Boy and his Atom" is absolutely more intended as a technical demonstration, though it too has a story, though you could argue the twist of the atom turning into a trampoline is a brief but still existing conflict. Same with Koyaanisqatsi (1982, directed by Godfrey Reggio and Ron Fricke) -- you can interpret it as with-plot but sans-conflict, but the very nature of that film asks for multiple interpretations by itself, so...

    i'll look closer into Derrida. i had a negative viewpoint of postmodernism (the idea, not the people associated) to begin with but its nice to know i was wrong.

     

    On 5/23/2021 at 10:47 PM, yui said:

    I'm not interested in writing an essay on this, but I simply must leave my five cents on the matter. In short, yes, conflict is necessary. Even your two examples of a plot "without conflict" have conflict. I've not seen either, but I want you to look at your summary of My Neighbor Totoro again, really closely. You mentioned there are forest spirits "who come to help in a time of need." Without conflict, there would be no time of need. Even the most chill and peaceful games and narratives have some sort of conflict. In the eldest days of video games before we even had the disc space for grand plots, ancient games such as Super Mario Bros. and Pac-Man had conflict. Even Animal Crossing games consistently have a conflict between you and Tom Nook, to whom you owe a large sum of Bells for your house and later its upgrades. Animal Crossing: New Horizons even takes this a step further as you tame, settle, and slowly urbanize the untamed wilds of a remote isle. This is not a violent conflict, but conflict can be anything from all-out war to simply not wanting to go outside to do the thing on a rainy day.

    There's also another point I'd like to address. Have you noticed how every example Tumblr OP provided of kishoutenketsu is a 4-panel comic? Even Blake's counter-example was one as well. That's because kishoutenketsu is a formula that works best on 4-panel comics. In fact, before today, I've only heard it used in the context of these comics, perhaps because to create a plot to something longer than four panels, you need conflict. Pick your favorite slice-of-life media, and even this will have conflict. For this example, I'll go with Kiniro Mosaic, which is the most peaceful, chill, and down-to-earth anime I have ever seen. Even this is not devoid of conflict, though its conflicts are smaller and subtler, and are on a per episode/chapter basis instead of having a grand overarching plot. Which brings me to my final point on why Tumblr OP is talking out of his ass at best, which isn't entirely related to the main subject of the thread, but I really have it out for this guy by this point and I can tie off the post nicely in this last paragraph.

    Did you notice anything about my cited examples in this post? They're all Japanese in origin. OP claims conflict as a necessity in plot is a thoroughly Western ideal, and this is clearly not the case. "Ah, but what if Eastern writing just has smaller conflicts, Yui?" well I'm glad you asked, because that's also stupid. The oldest and greatest of JRPGs - such as the very first Dragon Quest - have large, overarching conflicts akin to Western writing. Not only was this back in the 80s when cultures weren't quite as easily melted together as they are today, but if that's not good enough for you we can go even further back. Way further back, to the oldest Japanese myths, with stories of gods and monsters having... wait for it... conflict! Conflict has and will always be a vital point to any form of narrative, as without it all you have is idle worldbuilding and a story made of nothing but setting the stage. A song that is nothing but the intro, if you will. Without conflict, there is no plot, and without plot, there is no narrative.

    im just going to touch on the four panel thing - the example only gave 2 examples but now that i think of it a different format would be nice

    SUMMARY

    all in all i think i asked the wrong question(s) because i wasn't expecting the convo to go in this direction so ill just try to think about what i meant and then post on that later

  18. Posted

    20 hours ago, (?) said:

    Name 1 plot without conflict. You can't, because without conflict, it isn't a plot.

    4 hours ago, Thar said:

    While I'm sure there are ways to convey a story without it, I'd say that kind of writing falls more along the lines of surrealism and poetry rather than storytelling. Either way, the logic is simple: Most readers want - if not need - something to look forward to for them to want to keep reading/watching, so if you take away the conflict, you also take away the release of tension during the resolution. In other words, there's no satisfaction, and the whole story is just flat and uninteresting.

    allow me to provide a rebuttal, please - this is a discussion thread, so i'd thought i'd try to continue the discussion.

    i'm going to use two examples: from popular film culture, My Neighbor Totoro; from more art-based or unconventional film (even for this), Mr. Hulot's Holiday (even though the latter isn't really kishotenketsu, but i'm only using it for this next point.) now, for the sake of clarity i'm going to use the word "plot" to refer to the story's sequence of events, either chronologically or in the order of their placement; they will both be the same for these two examples.

    under this definition and without explicit spoilers for the endings: Totoro's plot could be summarized as two girls moving to the countryside and meeting forest spirits there who come to help in a time of need. Hulot's is even more barebone by conventional standards: a man goes to the French beachside, enjoys the company, has a little adventure from time to time, and then leaves. i'd still say these are plots, but they certainly aren't the big plots (also called arch plots) that our genre/brand-oriented story culture (in America anyway) put emphasis on. (while Totoro does have a climax of sorts, it's not derived directly from a driving conflict, but indirectly from a miniature one, and it still works for those who care about the characters and their stakes involved).

    they have more in common with mini plot, and in some cases even borrowing from antiplot, as they deliberately play down the sequence of events, sometimes divert from it, or sometimes barely have one at all (as in the case of Hulot, which indeed evokes a rather surreal state of mind for me) in order to emphasize and evoke, in a more subtle way, some other aspect of the story, or(for Totoro, the thinking and seeing through a youthful lens; i already discussed Hulot).

    this brings us back to kishotenketsu: can you have a kishotenketsu plot without conflict? i think you can if you be creative; for example, in a story i'm planning, the conflict isn't so much in the actual sequence of events as it is in the main character's narration, as she tries to come to terms/reconcile with the endpoint of that sequence. but either way, what sets kishotenketsu apart is that the conflict, whether it needs it or not, does not have to be confrontational, so much as contrasting, or at most, very dissonant without 'blowing up' into a genre-style big plot.

    (PS. pill: how is the first example in the article, where she gives the can to someone else, have a driving conflict?)

    that's enough from me for now, as i posted this to hear from others not to expouse my own position. thoughts?

     

  20. Posted

    crossposted from YCM

    https://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict

    came across this a few weeks ago and wanted to know what you all thought of it.

    TLDR for article: there exists a alternative narrative structure, commonly known as "kishotenketsu", that is not driven by a central conflict (as most mainstream Western narrative structures are). It consists of a first part establishing the story aspects, developing them in a second, introducing a new and notable story element in the third part (called a 'twist' in the article but not neccesarily a plot twist) and in the fourth/final part, the third is 'reconciled' with the initial two.

    thoughts?

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